Hawaii condos & apartments for sale
We found 3055 condos & apartments for sale in Hawaii
Condo
1
bd
546
sqft
$639,000 ▼ $10,000
1
bd 546
sqft
bd 546
sqft
Reduced price to sell !!! Legal Short Term Vacation Rental in Waikiki. The unit has a Short Term Rental license and currently participates in the Aston Rental Program. Fully furnished one bedroom one bath with one unassigned covered parking stall. Preferable cool side unit with beautiful mountain and city views. Waikiki Sunset is conveniently located for shopping, variety of dining and entertainment. Very close to famous Waikiki beach. It's a great investment - perfect for vacations or as your own residence.
Condo
2
bd
2
ba
1,344
sqft
$1,595,000 ▼ $55,000
2
bd 2
ba 1,344
sqft
bd 2
ba 1,344
sqft
The 25 building at the Kapalua Golf Villas is very desirable, as it is at the top of the complex with great views. Not only do you have views of the Kapalua Bay golf course but you have views of the ocean and the island of Molokai and Lana'i. This villa has been upgraded and is fully furnished, turn key unit. when in season, whale watch from your large lanai and there is almost always a view of a beautiful sunset to end your day. The golf villas are in the Kapalua resort where you are close to beaches and great restaurants, not to mention world class golf. This villa is in a vacation rental program.
Condo
2
bd
1,112
sqft
$1,320,000 ▼ $77,000
2
bd 1,112
sqft
bd 1,112
sqft
Just bring a suitcase, and enjoy luxury Living in Honolulu! From the stunning, panoramic ocean views to the convenient location & upscale amenities, this fully-furnished residence is exceptional. Step into elegance and enjoy the 'preferred 02' apartment. Just bring a suitcase, and enjoy luxury Living in Honolulu! Sweeping ocean and marina views from every room in your apartment. Top of the line appliances and quality throughout. Bamboo floors, granite counters and closet systems. Beautiful pool and manicured grounds feels like you are on holiday all the time. Lots of Guest parking and walk and dine to Waikiki. Pet friendly.
Condo
2
bd
1,673
sqft
$1,980,000 ▼ $320,000
2
bd 1,673
sqft
bd 1,673
sqft
Welcome to Ka La'i Waikiki Beach, LXR Hotels & Resorts formerly Trump International Hotel Waikiki. This unit is right under the top floor Penthouse level with high ceiling and is turnkey, and fully furnished two bedroom plus den and two full bathrooms features amazing ocean views from this unit which will capture nightly sunsets from both bedrooms as well as living, dining spaces. Top-notch amenities include an infinity edged pool, full-service spa, concierge, and valet parking.
Condo
2
bd
1,097
sqft
$920,000 ▼ $15,000
2
bd 1,097
sqft
bd 1,097
sqft
Amazing view! Ocean & Diamond Head view. 1350 Ala Moana is located in a great location, right next to Ala Moana Shopping Center and Ala Moana Beach Park, where you can enjoy resort-style living. Amenities include swimming pool, BBQ area, recreation deck, exercise room and more. AS IS CONDITION, include "as is' Addendum with all offer.
Condo
1
bd
701
sqft
$699,000
1
bd 701
sqft
bd 701
sqft
Experience prime location luxury living in this spacious 1-bedroom, 1-bathroom condominium located on the 37th floor of the Moana Pacific. This unit offers breathtaking panoramic views of the city skyline and mountains. The unit features an open kitchen floor plan, with a Sub-Zero refrigerator that integrates with the cabinetry. Additional conveniences include an in-unit washer and dryer, a walk-in closet, floor to ceiling windows and a TV with a wall mount, which the seller is leaving for the new owner. Enjoy resort like amenities, including a swimming pool, jacuzzi, fitness center, tennis courts, BBQ area, movie theaters, and more. Perfect for hosting friends and family and plenty of guest parking. Located in the Kakaako neighborhood, this condominium is close to Ala Moana Beach Park, the Ala Moana Shopping Center, and a variety of dining and entertainment options. Maintenace fee: $894.21 Cable/Internet Fee: $56
Condo
1
bd
477
sqft
$299,000
1
bd 477
sqft
bd 477
sqft
Condo for sale
Punahou Hale/Oahuan Tower L 1710 Makiki St unit 605 Honolulu, Oahu
Neighborhood: Makiki Area
Tastefully remodeled 1 bedroom 1 bathroom unit with all the conveniences of living in Makiki! Recently remodeled with new kitchen cabinets, countertops, stainless steel appliances, vinyl flooring, interior painting, and updated bathroom! Maintenance fee includes Electricity, Water (Hot) and Sewer. Perched on the 6th floor offering nice breezes and views of the city. Building amenities include pet friendly (please verify), community laundry, additional storage on the same floor, and secured entry! Owners may rent a parking stall for $120/month (on first come first served basis). Building exterior was freshly painted in 2019 and all new rear facing windows installed. Located in close proximity to downtown Honolulu, Punahou/Maryknoll Schools, University of Hawaii, Waikiki, Kakaako, Ala Moana, restaurants, parks, stores, markets and much more! Minutes from major bus lines and Biki station! Clean and move-in ready! Don’t wait, schedule your showing today and experience owning your very own unit in the heart of town!
Condo
2
bd
2
ba
1,052
sqft
$1,299,900
2
bd 2
ba 1,052
sqft
bd 2
ba 1,052
sqft
Condo for sale
Maui Kamaole 2777 S Kihei Rd unit L204 Kihei, Maui
Perched at the top of Maui Kamaole affords this condo a very nice ocean view. Situated near the tropical pool, but facing away from it makes this a very quiet location. Stainless appliances, nicely furnished, new sliding glass door in the main floor bedroom and that lanai was waterproofed and retiled. A short distance to the tennis courts. Make this your Maui home today. Call you favorite REALTOR to schedule a private showing.
Condo
3
bd
1,883
sqft
$2,690,000 ▼ $230,000
3
bd 1,883
sqft
bd 1,883
sqft
Experience luxury living in this beautifully appointed 3-bedroom, 3-bath corner-end unit on the 10th floor of Anaha, a prestigious residential tower in the heart of Ward Village, Honolulu’s award-winning master-planned community. Enjoy sweeping views of the Pacific Ocean, Ala Moana Beach Park, and sunsets through floor-to-ceiling windows.
This spacious residence features a gourmet Miele kitchen with a 6-burner gas cooktop, wine cooler, and large quartz island—perfect for entertaining. The primary suite offers ocean views, a walk-in closet, and a spa-like bath with soaking tub and separate shower. Two of the three bedrooms are en-suites, each offering privacy and comfort.
Designed by world-renowned architects, Anaha is known for its bold modern design and elegant interiors. Resort-style amenities include a glass-bottom pool, hot tub, sauna, steam room, tennis and volleyball courts, putting green, fitness center, golf simulator, BBQ cabanas, chef’s kitchen, private dining room, theater, dog park, and more. Concierge and 24-hour security ensure peace of mind.
Just steps to Whole Foods, beaches, fine dining, and luxury shopping—island elegance meets urban convenience.
Condo
3
bd
3
ba
1,610
sqft
$4,175,000
3
bd 3
ba 1,610
sqft
bd 3
ba 1,610
sqft
PREMIERE location on the 3rd floor of the Konea building—offering a wonderful connection to the inner courtyard activities and creating an ideal setting for “people watching”, whether in the apartment or on the lanai. The front door is just steps from the elevator for fast access to the lobby, resort amenities and the beach—and a quick return back home. Offered fully furnished with updated refrigerator, dishwasher and laundry. Strong rental income history. HOTEL ZONED.
Condo
459
sqft
$950,000 ▼ $49,000
459
sqft
sqft
Seller Highly Motivated! Seize this rare chance to own a legal daily vacation rental just steps away from notorious, Turtle Bay Ritz-Carlton Resort. This fully furnished, turn-key condo is a serene retreat on Oahu's North Shore. The exquisite studio, with a sleeping loft and queen-size bed, features a stylish bathroom with a newly tiled shower, mosaic floor, and glass doors. The kitchen is both functional and elegant with shaker-style cabinets, quartz countertops, and new appliances. Enjoy luxury vinyl plank flooring on the first floor and plush carpet in the loft, all complemented by fresh paint and a new staircase with ample storage. Benefit from in-unit laundry, parking, and breathtaking golf course views within a gated community. The amenities include two pools, BBQ areas, tennis courts, Pickle-ball courts, lush landscaping, guest parking, and 24-hour security. Just steps from world-class dining, white sand beaches, and stunning sunsets. This is a fantastic opportunity to generate income from your vacation home. Don’t miss this income-producing gem on Oahu’s North Shore!
Condo
1
bd
773
sqft
$379,000
1
bd 773
sqft
bd 773
sqft
Opportunity awaits at Harbor Square! This 8th floor, 1-bed, 1-bath residence, featuring 773 sqft of interior space plus a 97 sqft balcony, is ready to be renovated and customized to your personal style. Enjoy the comfort of central AC and the convenience of your utilities included in your maintenance fee. Harbor Square, comprised of two high-rises (700 Richards St and 225 Queen St), offers excellent amenities: pool, BBQ, sundeck, dog park, site manager, security and secured entry. Located in the middle of Downtown Honolulu, you’re surrounded by restaurants, entertainment and essential services. Honolulu Airport, Aloha Tower, Chinatown, Salt at Our Kakaako and more are minutes away; you also have quick access to freeway onramps taking you east or west. This is your chance to transform this residence into your dream space!
Condo
2
bd
2
ba
824
sqft
$1,099,000 ▼ $50,000
2
bd 2
ba 824
sqft
bd 2
ba 824
sqft
Few locations capture the essence of Direct Oceanfront Living quite like this, where sunrise ignites the horizon, winter whales breach offshore, and moonlight glides across the Pacific. Welcome to Maalaea Kai #403, a rare two-level, 2-bedroom, 2-bathroom front-row oceanfront retreat that is more than a residence. It’s a private perch above the sea, where every moment unfolds in color, rhythm, and rare tranquility. Located on the quiet east end of the complex, this approx. 824 sq. ft. residence offers unobstructed views of the boundless Pacific Ocean, Haleakala, and the South Shore of Maui. An extra window fills the space with natural light, while its elevated vantage invites ocean breezes and sweeping coastal vistas from nearly every room. Your private tiled lanai overlooks a manicured oceanfront lawn and expansive pool, creating an idyllic front-row seat to seasonal whale watching and sun-drenched afternoons. As day fades, the horizon comes alive in a wash of pastel skies and starlight, wrapping your sanctuary in calm. Inside, the unit unfolds in light and volume with soaring ceilings and a seamless open floor plan. Walls of glass frame the view and invite the outdoors in, while the kitchen, dining, and living spaces flow together in relaxed sophistication. Granite countertops, natural stone finishes, and a full-height custom backsplash elevate the kitchen, where GE, Whirlpool, and Frigidaire stainless appliances add contemporary flair. Cherry wood cabinetry glows with rich warmth, balanced by tile flooring laid on the bias that quietly speaks of custom craftsmanship. Recessed halogen lighting adds a soft, gallery-like ambiance. Comfort is a constant here, with three split air-conditioning units offering tailored climate control in each bedroom and the main living area. The first bedroom, located on the main level, features plantation shutters and mirrored closet doors, offering a peaceful retreat. The main level bathroom is clad in elegant floor-to-ceiling tile. Upstairs, a second bedroom awaits, offering breathtaking ocean views and its own private en-suite bath. From the lanai, watch the waves roll through Freight Trains, one of Maui’s most celebrated surf breaks, or take a sunrise stroll along five miles of golden beach just a short distance away. At Maalaea Harbor, a short walk brings you to world-class snorkeling, diving, fishing charters, the Maui Ocean Center, and charming waterfront restaurants. The central location means everything Maui has to offer is within reach—Kahului Airport, Kihei, Wailea, and Lahaina are all just a short drive away. Offered fully furnished, this exceptional Maalaea Kai residence is more than a home. It’s a place where ocean, light, and luxury come together in effortless harmony. An invitation to own a Maui coastal dream!
Condo
1
bd
850
sqft
$485,000
1
bd 850
sqft
bd 850
sqft
Condo for sale
Hawaiian Princess 84-1021 Lahilahi Street unit 601 Waianae, Oahu
Neighborhood: Makaha
Step outside your gated condo and onto a stunning sandy beach with warm Hawaiian waters just steps away. This rare corner unit features a spacious wraparound lanai with sweeping views of the Waianae coastline, visible from both the living area and lanai.
Enjoy watching sea turtles, dolphins, and even whales from the comfort of your home. Inside, the large one-bedroom unit was updated in 2024 with a modern kitchen, stainless steel appliances, and fresh paint. Luxury vinyl plank flooring and ceiling fans add a clean, breezy touch. An oversized washer and dryer make beach life even easier.
The well-maintained, gated complex offers a pool, tennis court, and recreation areas. Fire up the BBQ grills and dine outdoors in the island breeze.
This is more than a home — it's a slice of Hawaiian paradise, perfect for relaxed, coastal living.
Condo
3
bd
1,127
sqft
$657,500 ▼ $15,000
3
bd 1,127
sqft
bd 1,127
sqft
Escape to an oasis with breathtaking panoramic ocean views and mesmerizing city lights. This meticulously maintained home, featuring fresh paint, new carpeting, and elegant granite tile flooring, seamlessly blends modern comfort and classic charm. Relax on the expansive patio and embrace indoor-outdoor living, perfect for entertaining or savoring quiet moments surrounded by awe-inspiring Mountain views. Imagine sipping wine under the stars or simply relaxing in the cool mountain breezes with spacious living areas that accommodate both intimate or larger social events, providing the perfect setting for any occasion. With immaculate pride of ownership and an ideal balance of tranquility, this home is ready to welcome its new owners.
Condo
1
bd
1
ba
602
sqft
$435,000
1
bd 1
ba 602
sqft
bd 1
ba 602
sqft
Condo for sale
Maui Sands Seaside 3559 Lower Honoapiilani Rd unit 709 Lahaina, Maui
Neighborhood: Honokowai
OCEANFRONT OASIS! Welcome to your Seaside Sanctuary in Paradise. This beautifully Fully remodeled Leasehold Short term rentable condo offers the perfect blend of luxury and convenience, with every detail carefully crafted for modern coastal living. This ground floor unit is in a RARELY available complex and OCEANFRONT building and stays very booked! You're only feet away from the breathtaking views and soothing sounds of the sea. Enjoy full Sunsets, LOTS of Sea turtles dolphins and whales playing. Amenities include in unit Washer/Dryer and A/C. Everything is high efficiency (appliances) & cooktop is magnetic which safes electricity, LED lights though the whole unit. Sold fully furnished/turnkey and currently being short term rented. More features on attached documents. 1 parking space. DON'T miss out on the opportunity to own this Coastal Gem! Schedule an in person or Virtual showing TODAY and start living your dream Seaside life! There are also discussions that the lease fee may become available for purchase, providing the rare opportunity for an owner to covert the property to fee simple. Imagine the equity you could gain!!!
Condo
3
bd
3
ba
2,085
sqft
$2,499,000 ▼ $200,000
3
bd 3
ba 2,085
sqft
bd 3
ba 2,085
sqft
THIS is the BEACHFRONT PENTHOUSE you have been waiting for! SELLER IS ALSO OFFERING THE OPTION OF A 25% CO-OWNERSHIP INTEREST FOR $635,000. Located on the 7th floor, this beautifully updated FULLY Furnished Corner unit boasts marble floors, 3 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms and a lanai off EACH bedroom so you can wake up to the soothing sounds and majestic views of the ocean. Enjoy panoramic views of whales breaching right in front of you, spinner dolphins, turtles, Molokai, Lanai and the beautiful West Maui Mountains! The design of Unit #171 is perfect for large families or groups! Imagine the large income potential in this Hotel Zoned rental haven. This PALATIAL retreat will provide you with endless sunsets and relaxation. Unit #171 is one of only a few units with Central A/C, provides LOTS of closet space and a storage unit along with an in-unit Washer and Dryer for utmost convenience. PLENTY of Open parking. Sold completely furnished and turnkey! The Sands of Kahana is a large beachfront resort consisting of 196 units within 4 buildings and an On-site restaurant. Resort Amenities include 24/hr. front desk, business center, putting green, (2) tennis courts, (2) pickle ball courts, (2) fitness gyms, (4) BBQ stations, (2) pools with (2) hot tubs with one tailored for kids and more. Located perfectly between Kapalua and Kaanapali in West Maui. Only minutes away are Championship Golf Courses, shopping, and restaurants and grocery store. Own this Incredible piece of Paradise today! Call your favorite Realtor for a showing!
Condo
2
bd
609
sqft
$380,000
2
bd 609
sqft
bd 609
sqft
Condo for sale
Kapalama Makai 1514 Dillingham Blvd unit 301 Honolulu, Oahu
Neighborhood: Kalihi Area
Well-maintained 2 bedroom, 1 bath, rarely available in Kapalama Makai, conveniently located in town near schools, shopping center, restaurants and bus stops.
Condo
3
bd
2,499
sqft
$3,390,000 ▼ $490,000
3
bd 2,499
sqft
bd 2,499
sqft
Spectacular Diamond Head, Ocean and Panoramic Views of Ala Moana Beach from this luxurious Penthouse at Koolani, Honolulu's premier condo known for grand lobby, superb amenities, and luxurious quality of building. Rare opportunity for the most highly desired penthouse 4610 unit with glass walls framing magnificent sweeping ocean vistas spanning Sunrise to Sunset. Spacious floor plan includes a large living and dining room, gourmet kitchen, three bedrooms plus a huge deck (378 sq. ft.). Resort style amenities including a resort-like pool, whirlpool spa, tennis court and barbeque cabanas. One of the best locations on Oahu conveniently located close to world famous Ala Moana Shopping Center and beautiful Ala Moana Beach.
Condo
1
bd
1
ba
631
sqft
$480,000 ▼ $19,000
1
bd 1
ba 631
sqft
bd 1
ba 631
sqft
Lowest priced One Bedroom Hotel Zoned Condo on the south end of Kahana Manor with great breeze, no need for A/C. Great location across the street from the beach with restaurants and many amenities within walking distance. Priced to sell. Hurry, won't last long. HOA Includes Water, Cable TV, and High Speed Internet.
Condo
515
sqft
$185,000 ▼ $34,000
515
sqft
sqft
Upgraded Studio located on the 7th floor with unobstructed views of the Waianae Mountain range and Ocean view from lanai. Subject unit boasts an open living room and dining room with upgrades such as Quartz Counter Tops, Murphy Bed, Ceramic Tile Flooring throughout unit, White Wood Shaker Cabinets, Floor to Ceiling windows, and more. Makaha Valley Townhomes offers a community swimming pool, 24-hour security for added privacy. The unit is located within minutes to the world-renowned Makaha Beach, host to some of the world's most mesmerizing sunsets.
Condo
1
bd
548
sqft
$300,000
1
bd 548
sqft
bd 548
sqft
Charming 1-bedroom unit located in the heart of town! Enjoy easy access to the freeway for a smooth commute, and take advantage of the convenience of being just minutes away from grocery stores, shopping malls, and everyday essentials.
Condo
2
bd
1,189
sqft
$1,590,000 ▼ $45,000
2
bd 1,189
sqft
bd 1,189
sqft
Condo for sale
Azure Ala Moana 629 Keeaumoku Street unit 1601 Honolulu, Oahu
Neighborhood: Holiday Mart
Experience elevated island living in this stunning 2-bed, 2-bath corner unit offering sweeping views of the ocean, city, Magic Island, and harbor. As the largest 2-bedroom floor plan in the building, it features floor-to-ceiling windows and split AC throughout. The modern kitchen is equipped with glossy white cabinets, quartz countertops and premium Sub-Zero, Bosch and Wolf appliances. The side-by-side washer and dryer is located just off the kitchen. The primary suite offers ocean views, a walk-in closet and a deep soaking tub. Additional features include two covered side-by-side parking stalls and built-in pet food trays. Enjoy the inviting and convenient amenities: pool, spa, gym, BBQ cabanas, club lounge, theater, guest suites, dog park, EV charging stations, and 24/7 security—all in an unbeatable location near Ala Moana Beach, shopping, and dining! And for added peace of mind, Azure is fully covered with 100% hurricane insurance.
Condo
2
bd
2
ba
742
sqft
$620,000 ▼ $20,000
2
bd 2
ba 742
sqft
bd 2
ba 742
sqft
Step into a truly stunning oasis where modern updates blend seamlessly with island living. Thoughtfully renovated in 2023, this turn-key condo features new tile flooring throughout, a fully upgraded kitchen with spacious island and newer appliances, and beautifully remodeled bathrooms with all-tile showers and new washer and dryer. Custom built-in bedroom closets provide smart storage while an expansive back patio and lush landscaping create the perfect setting for entertaining or unwinding in privacy. Ideally situated on the ocean side of the complex, this home backs up to open space, enhancing the sense of seclusion and serenity. Enjoy easy access to Sugar Beach, Kenolio Park, and the vibrant coastal lifestyle that South Maui is famous for. Conveniently located just 15 minutes from Kahului's airport and shopping, and a short drive to Wailea's world-class beaches, golf courses, and luxury amenities, this is the prefect place to call home. Don't miss this opportunity—schedule your showing today!
Hawaii condo & apartment stats
Condos for sale
3055
Price range
$18k - $6.5m
* information deemed reliable, but not guaranteed
Average Listing Price Hawaii for condos & homes
Average Listing Price
| $959,583 | +$571 |
| Nov 28 - Dec 04 | 0.06% |
|
$639,779 condos $1,488,987 homes |
w-o-w |
Median Sales Price Hawaii for condos & homes
Median Sales Price
| $785,250 | -$7,500 |
| Dec 05, 2024 - Dec 04, 2025 | -0.96% |
|
$590,000 condos $1,164,800 homes |
y-o-y |
Hawaii Neighborhood Price Trends
| Island | Average listing price | w-o-w |
|---|---|---|
| Diamond Head | $2,013,200 | ▼ -0.01% |
| East Molokai | $430,849 | ▲ +0% |
| Ewa Beach | $697,609 | ▲ +0% |
| Haiku | $2,163,377 | ▲ +0.04% |
| Hamakua | $987,084 | ▲ +0% |
| Hana | $2,116,275 | ▼ -0.04% |
| Hawaii Kai | $1,167,206 | ▲ +0.1% |
| Honokohau | $1,000,000 | ▲ +0% |
| Kaanapali | $1,776,212 | ▼ -0% |
| Kahakuloa | $1,994,017 | ▼ -1.28% |
| Kahului | $626,797 | ▼ -0% |
| Kailua | $1,821,805 | ▲ +0.02% |
| Kakaako | $1,357,487 | ▲ +0.13% |
| Kaneohe | $851,007 | ▼ -0.04% |
| Kapalua | $3,488,258 | ▼ -0.01% |
| Kau | $513,179 | ▲ +0% |
| Kauai | $1,476,524 | ▼ -0.28% |
| Kaupo | $1,754,182 | ▲ +0% |
| Keanae | $966,000 | ▲ +0% |
| Kihei | $993,568 | ▲ +0.23% |
| Kipahulu | $1,827,833 | ▲ +0% |
| Koolauloa | $1,637,660 | ▲ +0.36% |
| Kula/Ulupalakua/Kanaio | $2,020,022 | ▼ -0% |
| Lahaina | $2,273,392 | ▲ +0.04% |
| Leeward | $420,383 | ▲ +0.1% |
| Maalaea | $795,466 | ▼ -0.18% |
| Makakilo | $579,238 | ▲ +0.03% |
| Makawao/Olinda/Haliimaile | $1,558,960 | ▲ +0.03% |
| Maui Meadows | $1,765,965 | ▲ +1.9% |
| Nahiku | $1,208,774 | ▲ +0% |
| Napili/Kahana/Honokowai | $950,961 | ▲ +0.06% |
| North Hilo | $2,339,767 | ▲ +0% |
| North Kohala | $1,811,137 | ▲ +0% |
| North Kona | $1,061,009 | ▲ +0.05% |
| North Shore | $1,520,785 | ▲ +0.18% |
| Olowalu | $4,429,176 | ▲ +0% |
| PearlCity | $482,630 | ▲ +0.1% |
| Pukalani | $872,052 | ▲ +0.05% |
| Puna | $425,764 | ▼ -0.03% |
| South Hilo | $842,887 | ▼ -0.06% |
| South Kohala | $1,020,423 | ▲ +0% |
| South Kona | $999,185 | ▲ +0% |
| Spreckelsville/Paia/Kuau | $3,730,192 | ▼ -0.01% |
| Waikiki | $622,710 | ▲ +0.04% |
| Wailea/Makena | $3,626,272 | ▼ -0.03% |
| Wailuku | $912,893 | ▼ -0.05% |
| Waipahu | $492,428 | ▲ +0.16% |
| West Molokai | $834,096 | ▲ +0.15% |
* information deemed reliable, but not guaranteed